A wild TREEDOG appeared!

[Kerrin Clearloch]

You say that Istvan could be too dark for a Redwall story, but what about the blackrobe rats and Malkariss, with Nadaz being the creepy Voice of the Host? Redwallers revere the spirit of Martin, and various vermin have mentioned Vulpuz as being the ruler of hellgates. True only one of those could be considered a real deity, but what I'm saying is that it doesn't seem so out of place that I could never see it happen. Religion is something that hasn't been really touched upon very much, it's true, but Istvan's "All-Mother" seems different to me. I can see this being a personal thing more than a real religious following.

I dunno. I kind of see him as a more sinister Tagg, and that certainly doesn't hurt my opinion of him.

I get your point and maybe this is really just a personal preference.  I guess I'm kinda basing myself on what I read about Brian Jacques, he started his books for children because the books he was reading them were all about complex or creepy real-life stuff and he wanted something inspiring instead of confusing, with really good characters to root for and real bad villains to contrast them. Granted, he seems to have contradicted himself a few times in his later novels- with some grey characters etc. but I still feel Istvan doesn't fit in the world he created. The examples you mentioned are more about the villains and Jacques did give his villains a creepy, otherworldly aura sometimes. But Istvan seems grey rather than say, Goragula, who I wouldn't mind at all if he was as weird or creepy as can be. I dunno, I just couldn't really root for Istvan unless something drastic happen. Apart from his markings, Tagg was pretty much a Redwall hero through and through- brave, selfless, cheerful, funny, friendly, and not in the slightest inclined to dark musings or acts, so I feel the analogy is a bit off.  But maybe I'm nitpicking since obviously a lot of people like him.

And there is the fact that the Redwall fandom/community, including the Redwall contests, have included loads of grey characters, psychologically complex characters, deities, etc. so in general, I know Istvan isn't really drastically off. It's just my personal adherence to Brian's style I guess.

[Balmafula]

Yeah, I can understand what you're saying.

For me, I never liked any of Redwall's heroes, even when I was a kid. That's why I am glad to see a darker Tagg because I couldn't stand the real one XD That's honestly what got me into writing Redwall fiction. I loved the world and the animals and the atmosphere, but I just couldn't stand the protagonists. They were always just either blandly decent guys or annoying loudmouths and either way they were hideously overpowered. This is why I have such a bias against hares.

I guess this is going to be kind of a rant, but I never bought the argument of "Brian Jacques wanted good good guys and bad bad guys." The thing is... you can still do that by giving your good guys realistic faults. There's no excuse as to why he couldn't do that. You don't even have to make them grey.

Let's take Tagg for example. Tagg leaves his old family of Juska without a backwards glance. He says he never even loved Sawney, even though Sawney seemed like he was probably the most doting father to him. NEVER loved him. Ever. And didn't even miss the creatures he grew up with. But he's not angry either. He's not excited to be free and living his own life. He's just kind of there. He does the right thing because, well, he's just kind of a decent guy. He has no PASSION. No love of anything. No hatred of anything. No remnants of the vermin life he had lived for seasons. He has literally no personality. How hard would it have been to give him some color? I'm sure kids' heads wouldn't have exploded, Mr. Jacques. Meanwhile, we have Lonna Bowstripe sniping at terrified rats running for their lives who have no chance, no chance at ALL, of fighting back. And LONNA'S supposed to be the guy we're rooting for?!

Ugh.

I guess what I'm trying to say is this is the whole reason, I feel, for even doing something like this. We're taking what made the Redwall books so good and improving them. We're making actually good characters that you can really feel for, for good or bad.

[Kerrin Clearloch]

Well, I guess that's where we differ. XD I've grown up with the Redwall series and loved every page of it... of course, Brian's characters weren't really complex, and neither were the stories but the charm of the world he created and the simpleness of the morals is a part of what makes his stories great methinks. Of course, teenagers who start questioning the world more will find the books shallow in that aspect (even though I still reread the series two times a year) but remember, he wrote the books for children. I feel like children's books these days are way too filled with adult themes of sexuality, problems of society, the darker part of everyone's self, etc. and the Redwall books tried to counterbalance that. Don't get me wrong, I love characters with faults, they're way more interesting and real. But when we're young children sometimes it may be good to have heroic characters to look up to and use as role models, characters who are simple in their values and don't confuse with many failings. I'd point out that in older fantasy books such as the Lord of the Rings, the characters have much less faults than in new fantasy series. Take book version Aragorn. Contrary to the film version, he never really doubted himself or his role as future king, nor did he lose to Sauron in the Seeing Stone contest. And those were pretty much the only faults he had. Basically, in the book he was pretty unbeatable and virtuous and brave. I know the Lord of the Rings is still a much deeper book morally, but I feel like authors who give us role model characters aren't too bad either, especially for children.

Whew, this was quite a rant. Just to clarify, I like how the Redwall fanbase has developed the Redwall universe to a more complex and (I would argue) more adult level, but I still find great value in the more simple books that Brian wrote. I guess what this debate's shown me though, is that I can't really argue against Istvan on this viewpoint. He's a part of the new representation of Redwall and he does have a place. So I guess, all I can say is even in more mature Redwall characters, I like best those who follow the old traditions but add faults and complexity to make their characters more endearing (aka. the rest of the applicants) and I don't quite feel anything in Istvan that relates to Redwall. But that's just personal preference and now I understand a whole lot better everyone's reasons for voting for him.