Notes from Ardis

[Revel]

Ummmmmmm. This conversation is making me a little uncomfortable.

[Ada Veen]

Could you clarify how (here, or through PM if it's more sensitive)? Is it triggering (in which case I will label any future discussion as such) or...? Heaven knows I've run into plenty of stuff that triggers me, and that's a danger on these vast internets.

My apologies to Cairn and to anyone else if the last post came off as an attack...that's not what I was trying to do there. Rather, I'm trying to clarify my personal philosophy on the writing of characters with mental illnesses or otherwise.

[Cairn Destop]

That is the problem when one banters around certain terms that act as lightning rods. 

Now Suellyn claims her problem with food will become clarified with her future postings.  I would wait until then. 

As to the historical comments and the advice regarding how to work them into the character's story, those are all good.  However, we should remember anything mentioned by the audience is nothing more than a suggestion. 

I do agree that if the character is going for the mental illness or the eating disorder angle, then the author should research it enough to come across as accurate.  It makes the character more believable.  But then again, the readers suspend reality while writing these adventures and if they like a particular character, realism doesn't apply.

My impression is that the eating problem is morning rather than an attempt at thinness.  Though I am wondering if that is the entire truth based on the application.

Clarification needed in the first story postings?

[Ada Veen]

It's like an obsessive fear of gaining weight, actually, which sounds the same as wanting to be thin but...actually isn't. There is no weight or size that is safe. Carrie Arnold clarifies some other points:

If I eat, I thought, something really bad is going to happen. That "something bad" could be a magical mysterious weight gain of 100 pounds, it could be I would feel like crap, it could be that I "ruined" the day. When nothing bad happened (as it usually did), I linked that to not eating. That tiny shred of self-esteem from watching the scale go down? That was because of my not-eating. The stylish new jeans I let myself wear? Not-eating. The (seeming) decrease in fear around food? Not-eating.

Eating would somehow erase all of that. Eating and gaining weight would remove the whole foundation on which I had built my life. That's a pretty big fear.

Which is why I think Suellyn is not anorexic but is definitely eating-disordered...possibly, as Damask mentioned, as a part of clinical depression. This is interesting and I look forward to seeing how she writes it!

And yeah, authors can play with realism here. I just like to harp on giving your character a consistent basis. Your mind, and by extension your character's mind, adheres to a pattern of response, of behavior, and of thought; so while character A may not be based in reality, they behave with some realism-- so, if character A has a phobia of, I dunno. How about hedgehogs?

If character A has a phobia of hedgehogs, and they encounter a hedgehog, the expected response is that the hedgehog will then scare the crap out of character A. Character A probably thinks about hedgehogs when they're in the woods, or a pet store somewhere. So we can suppose that character A will go out of his or her way to avoid hedgehogs, and furthermore that they had a bad experience with a hedgehog-- this is according to the understanding of what a phobia is. How character A acts out the hedgehog phobia, or how they formed the hedgehog phobia, however, is what matters more, because CHARACTERS and not the particulars of their fiddly mental bits are key. But there are still limits; they are not likely to attempt to smash hedgehogs with hammers, nor are they likely to easily overcome their phobia, or appreciate porcupines, but they are probably not afraid of bristle brushes or...you get it. Or you don't. You probably don't. We adhere to a loose understanding of the problem (phobia, eating disorder, obsessive thoughts about stoats) in question, and let that work in the context of the character.

And now, Revel.

A thing you are good at: highlighting detail. Doing this helps immerse the reader in a setting, or in a character's viewpoint. (The hissing oven door, drawing lines over the bodies, the bread knives, the soft neck bones-- GAG, the neck bones.)

The flipside-- this kind of writing always feels bare-bones to me. This is because of my personal preference for prose that is more lush; not everyone is good at that, though, and not everyone likes it. However... if you scroll through your application and sort of skim it, you'll notice that your phrasing falls into a particular pattern, your paragraphs and lines of dialogue are all of a similar length. It lulls the reader into a certain rhythm-- one without any narrative tension-- and while it's not happening as much here, that can get boring quickly. Character A did this, Character A did that-- that's good, that's grand, that gets the story across, but your character also has a unique viewpoint on the world.

Because of your talent for selective detail, you can work around that, moving from your usual pace to a sudden close-up. Choose, like you have, a few small moments and describe them more in-depth; look at how you can change sentence structure, paragraph structure, and the structure of a piece overall through doing this.

[Ada Veen]

Suellyn

I don't want to harp on about what I've already harped on...which means I don't have too much to say about Suellyn because she's a capable writer. Bam, character. Bam, background. Bam, conflict, all in a very small space. (THANK YOU; the people who urge the contestants to make longer and longer posts are v. silly people, imho. A skillful writer doesn't need much space. I'm interested in what you'd do with a drabble-- a hundred word piece.)

All I have is a couple of stupid nitpicks: one, what's up with the incorrect archaisms in the accents? I mean, it sounds nice but it doesn't make logical sense...I'm fairly sure it'd be thou hast, not thee.* Is it on purpose?

Two, you don't need to clarify "thin hedgehog" for us. You've given us enough detail-- vivid, well-remembered detail-- in the image of the tightening belt. Your audience can reasonably assume that she is thin, without you adding somewhat unnecessary modifiers.

Eliza

I had my roommate (Lucette Veen, not registered here) read some of these over so I could hash out my points aloud (I think best that way) and we both ended up wondering the same thing: since, as you've mentioned, Eliza's society days are over and we are not going to occupy ourselves with that any more...

Why is that the primary focus of the application? I mean, obviously, yes. That is how she gets the Phantom-face. But arguably, the face thing is the very crux of her character in this contest. That is her catalyst. And because you end so abruptly, all we know of Eliza is...the old Eliza. The society belle.

Lucette would like some points of the setting clarified. I don't care about this as much, because I'd rather focus on Eliza post-accident, but...

Hi, this is L.  I'm confused about the logical things.  I think most of the other apps give a sense of grounding to the character--occupation, ties or lack thereof, indications of socioeconomic status.  Eliza obviously has the latter, but exactly what are the means with which she can buy fancy dresses and worm her way into society functions?  Is she a courtesan?  Is she a lone heiress/independently wealthy?  Does she have a family?  Is her family wealthy?  If she has a family, why's she not concerned about shaming them?  I don't need a full backstory here, but hints would be great.  And I'm also confused about where she even is post-accident, and whose physician is tending to her.  Some things I'd like to see with her in-contest are how she deals with her now-nonexistent chances of marriage (if she ever had any chance to begin with), and whether or not she has any skill other than beauty to sustain her.

This is Ada again. In regards to the physician thing, there was a difference between surgeons and physicians... I don't think the difference matters at all, here, but I'd still like to know where she is and how she got there. She might wonder? ...Especially if she's somewhere without her clothing? I am a lady and I can reasonably attest that I would freak out, not just because I had a wicked-awesome dress on.

Anyway, I just wonder why you chose to highlight that particular moment when the aftermath is more important to who Eliza is in-contest. It might be indicative of a pacing problem, especially since it seems like you ended abruptly with the "she would rather be dead" line. You're buffering the most important part with an intro at least twice as long.

Just some weird little writing-things, otherwise. There are parts where you REALLY shine: "Beauty had passed them by, no matter much denial they tried to slather onto their faces." That is GREAT because the word slather suggests so much-- makeup, lotions and potions... and then "Eliza finally draped a paw." Lovely image, there.

And then there are parts where you fall flat: "At the bar, the society queens were busily engaged in the usual activities for those incapable of dancing: nursing tumblers of wine and slicing others to ribbons with their gossip." Lucette is confused. Do they have crutches? Do they not have husbands? Are they really old? Dancing is not exactly strenuous.

"Mass exodus eliminated the front doors as a viable means of egress..." is cliche, and really really awkward when you try reading it out loud.

Lucette says right now you are writing a character type (shallow society girl) that'll hopefully grow into a character. Becky Sharp's already been mentioned, the Plastics, the Heathers, (L. takes over) actually she's very like Ginevra Fanshawe, Fanny Ring, little bit of Blanche Ingram, little bit nouveau-riche St. George siblings...they've all got their quirks.


* Because thee is the, uh, what is it, dative? Like, I give thee a cup. This is what Lucette is trying to figure out right now. Okay, here we go.

[Dozystoat]

...obsessive thoughts about stoats...

Hey, that's not a mental illness! It's ... it's a ... um. *sobs* Okay, so what if it's weasels? Am I still sane then?!

[Ada Veen]

I'm just concerned for your well-being!

[Revel]

A thing you are good at: highlighting detail. Doing this helps immerse the reader in a setting, or in a character's viewpoint. (The hissing oven door, drawing lines over the bodies, the bread knives, the soft neck bones-- GAG, the neck bones.)

The flipside-- this kind of writing always feels bare-bones to me. This is because of my personal preference for prose that is more lush; not everyone is good at that, though, and not everyone likes it. However... if you scroll through your application and sort of skim it, you'll notice that your phrasing falls into a particular pattern, your paragraphs and lines of dialogue are all of a similar length. It lulls the reader into a certain rhythm-- one without any narrative tension-- and while it's not happening as much here, that can get boring quickly. Character A did this, Character A did that-- that's good, that's grand, that gets the story across, but your character also has a unique viewpoint on the world.

Because of your talent for selective detail, you can work around that, moving from your usual pace to a sudden close-up. Choose, like you have, a few small moments and describe them more in-depth; look at how you can change sentence structure, paragraph structure, and the structure of a piece overall through doing this.

I tried to keep this in mind but I think I went overboard with the descriptions and sometimes the paragraphs ended up the same length no matter what I did. It's not my usual style at all, I was experimenting. Should I keep it up or drop it?

[Ada Veen]

I think it works well-- in fact, I think you could go even further-- but if it's very difficult for you, I would drop it. It could start to come across as forced. On my first draft, I don't like trying to acheive a certain "style" because then everything sounds affected.

That's just some advice. I really DO like it. A lot! But if it gets hard...

I feel like so veeery many of the applications are light on description, and I want to see people push it.

I do, however, think about how I structure my writing: why am I breaking a paragraph here? How does that work with the current action in the story? Why am I setting this line on its own? How often do I use the dash, the semicolon, how do I break up sentences with commas, did I already have an -ly or an -ing nearby and what is it doing there...? I find that'll help me change structure/length without consciously straining to have x amount of lines in a certain spot.

[Cairn Destop]

I feel like so veeery many of the applications are light on description, and I want to see people push it.

I do, however, think about how I structure my writing: why am I breaking a paragraph here? How does that work with the current action in the story? Why am I setting this line on its own? How often do I use the dash, the semicolon, how do I break up sentences with commas, did I already have an -ly or an -ing nearby and what is it doing there...? I find that'll help me change structure/length without consciously straining to have x amount of lines in a certain spot.

To continue this thought, think of art works.  A photograph is good, but it lacks dimention.  An artist can put those three dimensions into a painting.

Writing too has its three D's.  They are drama, description, and dialogue.  Every chapter you write should have all three of these elements.  How you mix them is where the talent comes in.  If you mix these well, you'll find your sentence and paragraphs will also vary in length without you realizing it.

I will also tell you that you should mix these elements.  Don't get in the habit of always opening with a descriptive paragraph.  Readers will skim that opening looking for the "meat of a story."  Watch the other contestants.  If they begin their chapter with a description, open yours with drama, (action), or a short conversation.

[Stonewall]

I feel like so veeery many of the applications are light on description, and I want to see people push it.

I actually deked points while judging if I felt the writer had spent too much time describing and not enough time with the character. I'm always far more interested with the character than the scenery. Especially when you've only got 600 words, and the setting in the application probably won't be coming with the character anyway.

[Ada Veen]

But "too much time" is, well, too much time. And I should clarify: I like description as it relates to the character, or to the forward motion of the plot. I'm also referring to seeing the character's internal landscape-- how they think, reflected in the prose.

Example:

Shoggoths in Bloom, Elizabeth Bear

He's not much older than forty, but wizened, his hands work-roughened and his face reminiscent of saddle-leather, in texture and in hue. Professor Harding's age, and Harding watches him with concealed interest as he works the Bluebird's engine. He might be a veteran of the Great War, as Harding is. (1)

He doesn't mention it. It wouldn't establish camaraderie: they wouldn't have fought in the same units or watched their buddies die in the same trenches. (2)

That's not the way it works, not with a Maine fisherman who would shake his head and not extend his hand to shake, and say, between pensive chaws on his tobacco, "Doctor Harding? Well, huh. I never met a colored professor before," and then shoot down all of Harding's attempts to open conversation about the near-riots provoked by a fantastical radio drama about an alien invasion of New York City less than a fortnight before. (3)

1) Bear might have just said that he was around Harding's age-- which gives us nothing, because then we have no narrative cues telling us how old they are. Or she might have just described the fisherman, which would be pointless. She links the two thoughts, then uses them to further a character point: Harding fought in the Great War.

2) This gives you the idea that somehow, the fisherman and Doctor Harding are different-- because they're from different areas of the country, or maybe--

3) Harding is black, and differences in skin color or not he's also "other" to the fisherman... furthermore, he likes the fantastical (a major thematic point).

Bear could have written it any number of ways. Really, this is all that happens...

There are two men. One of them is black, and the other is white. They are sitting in a boat and not talking. But she doesn't say that, does she?

Nope. She's already building complex layers of background, story, and character. And she does it in just 148 words.

[Eliza Lacrimosa]

Thank you for the notes, Miz Veen. To preface any reply, there are two questions that I would like to ask of you.

1) Forgive me for not knowing, but are the questions in your review rhetorical, or would you like me to answer them? (I can, if you so wish.)

2) Is your username a rework of "Nevada" spelt backwards?

[Ada Veen]

1) I believe Lucette intends them as legitimate questions that'd cement Eliza's character through her situation and her background, and I definitely think that if you answer any of them it should be through the story.

2) No. I'm Van Veen's cousin, critic, collaborator, muse, desire, tormentor and alter ego. Unless you don't know Van Veen... I think the man's got a biography somewhere on this what-do-you-call-it, on the internet.


[Google it.  ; )]

[Eliza Lacrimosa]

I had actually intended on answering as many of them as possible within the course of the story.

(My personal feeling is that the more you explain outside of the story, the less credibility you give to your writing.)

So I'm glad that we're on the same page, there.  :)