A wild TREEDOG appeared!

[Sycamore]

So I decided to host my own thread instead of constantly toss pennies (that's two cents) at everyone else's. I don't imagine I'm going to be doing full in depth reviews. Two jobs and being active on one or two RP sites can steal a lot of activity, but I want to have a place where I can throw thoughts up without fear of derailing a thread and annoying everyone around me.

One thing I've noticed that I'm getting really aggravated about is everyone's big beef with NPCs. Seriously, take a look at this talk:

I would also like a strong, linear plotline that doesn't focus too much on NPCs. I know they are essential, but I think it's disappointing when authors spend more time developing relationships with NPCs than with each other.

On Grainger: A lot of people are tripped up by the NPCs. Usually I am not a fan of a lot of different NPCs in an application, especially knowing that we'll never be seeing them again.

I'm all for Alder being one of the winners of the Merchants, but the other reviews have convinced me that I think the NPC package deal is risky and will need to be pulled off well if he's going to succeed, even if I am a fan of his overall character.

Also: regarding the 'NPC Package Deals' that are worrying people regarding Zevka, Alder, Grainger etc. Bear in mind that everyone has just fallen off a cliff when the story begins, and from the sounds of the prologue, a lot of people haven't survived. The authors could very easily get rid of their NPCs as soon as the story begins.

I wonder if this already formed pair would hamper further friendships within the story?

1.) Alder - I feel he has plenty of room to grow, and, though I believe EVERYONE is skeptical of the packaged NPC deal, I think Alder could make it work so long as he makes sure to keep the focus on himself.

The problem with bringing your own NPC
Is that within the plot, it hamstrings thee

Also, as per the instructions of, like, EVERYBODY -- Don't overdo it with Mekad.

But the advice to Alder, I give to you
Write one character instead of two.

Part of me groans at the NPC package deal aspect of this...

Holy wow. So many NPCs I don't care about.

Am I the only one that doesn't care about this? Seriously! NPCs are not that big of a deal! Dare I say they can help complement a character and show off their strengths in the application (and story!!!) proper. And then they have just as much room to grow and develop as any old "legitimate" character being written. Some of my favorite characters have been NPCs. Anyone remember Kelsey from RV4 or something? I'm still mad about her death! I can pitch another fit about it if anyone wants.

Remember Birch? Jinck?

How many applications in this thing don't have NPCs in some way, shape, or form? It's all right for everyone to have an NPC in their app to bolster their character and show off their strengths, but as soon as the mere idea that one of them might stick around everyone gets all nervous and fidgety about it. Need I remind everyone how awesome NPCs can be?? I think it was Stonewall who wrote a brilliant article showcasing the best of the best NPCs in all the contests, although I can't seem to find where that article is hosted...

In any case, everyone quit your griping!!! I'll remind you all of the time I brought not one, not two, but six NPCs into Redwall: Revolutions. Hector, Thera, Alastia, Envie, Gergreg, and Gergreg. If we're talking about NPC Package Deals I'm one of the biggest culprits. But no one seemed to mind them, at least I don't think. I like to believe they really made the story more enjoyable.

Does anyone remember the application I sent in? I'd link it but it never got posted on the contestant board, so I'm just going to copy/paste from my email.

?Be serious! I need you to act surly!?

?I am serious! And I thought Thera was acting Shirley.?

Juniper took a deep breath as he propelled the shrewcraft across the river. He had been with these beasts for a good week now, and he had picked up a few of their mannerisms, though he was still trying to find the motives behind their bad temperament. It almost seemed as though they were mad for the sole reason of being mad, which put him a little on edge due to the excessive jovial manner he had adopted, and one that the shrews found rather tiring.

?June, m?boy, c?mere,? said the flamboyant fox as he laid an arm across the otter?s shoulders.

Juniper pulled his whiskers forward in attentiveness, following Hector as he led him away from the rest of the troupe.

?The role is surly. Surly. You get that? Surly, with a distinct ?s? sound. Not surely, with an ?s-h?. They are two completely different words and have two completely different moods. Understand??

?Surely,? June said, causing Hector to pause in their stroll and blink.

?There?s a tribe of shrews across the field. I want you to stay with them for a while. Shouldn?t be hard, seeing as how you?re an otter and all. In any case, they?re as surly as surly can be. You can learn a thing or two from them.?

The boat scraped against the shore and with a hearty leap and a shake, June was out of the water and sopping wet.

?Oy! Watch where yer shaking! Yer gettin? me mother all wet!?

?So sorry!? June said, removing his vest and wringing out the excess liquid, which caused another shrew to cry.

?Ach! You?re getting water all over the boat! Do that on the bank, idiot riverdog!?

The otter squeaked and bounded ashore before he continued to dry himself off. My, these creatures were uppity, but he was learning, and that was all that mattered in the end. Hector would be by to pick him up in a few days? time, and hopefully June would be able to deduce the cause of their irritation with the world.

?Cut! Cut! June, what are you doing??

?Hmm?? the otter asked.

Hector stamped his footpaws after he clambered up on the stage. ?You?re supposed to be surly; what are you doing agreeing with everybeast??

?Well, isn?t that what you want?? The otter scratched his muzzle, his tail twitching as his brain worked to figure out what he had been doing wrong.

?What? No! I need you to be surly!?

June?s brow was knitted in confusion. ?That?s exactly what I?m being! Surely, right? And to be surely is to be ? umm ? con ? genial, I think it is? Congenial??

The fox looked at him like he was mad, complete with a cocked head.

?Or is it ? not ? to be??

?Surly,? Hector said.

?Surely,? Juniper repeated with a nod of his head.

?June, m?boy, c?mere??

So there. NPCs are not things designed to ruin applications and characters. I'm a little unnerved to think that none of us trusts these authors enough to write a compelling NPC that bolsters a character rather than hold them back. People have said that Mekad outshone Zevka, and that they like Mekad more than Zevka. Great! Didn't Zevka's author do a brilliant job, then?? She has created two fully fleshed out, rounded, enjoyable characters, and the only reason you like Mekad more than Zevka is because he's sillier and lazier. But she has the drive and she has the heart. Just because you like a character more in a piece of writing does not mean the author has done a poor job. If anything, they have done more than what we expected of them.

/end rant.

[Chokk Wulgar]

*leaves room for responses to rant*

Might I ask what other RP sites you are on? Are they Redwall sites? Just wondering if I'm on any of them. I'm admin for a couple ROC sites.

[TNT]

My main problem is that in recent contests, it seems like every contestant brings in at least five or six NPCs, so they tend to add up. It gets pretty confusing keeping them all straight sometimes. That's why I'm a little worried when I see so many NPCs in apps. I'm just really, really hoping for a lot of them to get buried under the rubble, or just not come along in the first place. It's kind of why I wrote the prologue the way I did. I was hoping for something a lot simpler. It allows for more contestant interactions, too.

[Sycamore]

To be honest, I got that same impression with the prologue. I'm expecting only a few characters to survive, which is another reason why this NPC business is not something I'm rather worried about.

[Rousseau]

I do understand why everyone is skeptical about the idea, especially if everyone is bringing one or two along, as most of the readers do want the characters to develop from character interaction rather than NPC interaction, but I don't understand why practically everyone is all of a sudden completely hating them. My character Cecil Sassafras in Redwall: Revolutions was almost completely about an NPC, while in Redventure 6, I wrote SIX entire posts that did not feature a single interaction with a player character, except for one where Alan got like four lines at the end of it. Two of those posts were in a single week, so I went a whole week in the competition without interacting with a single character except for NPCs and somehow wasn't killed off. Hell, one of the posts didn't even feature Rousseau at all and was moved to the NPC Villain's point of view so that I could develop him further before the climax of Day 7, and not a single person batted an eye at this and I ended up winning the competition somehow, even when most of Rousseau's actual development came from her interactions with her ship's cook Calder and not the Player Cast.

Both beasts were silent for a moment until Calder continued, ?So I heard that-?

?Aye.?

Calder was silent.

?I didn?t ask ?im to,? Rousseau said.

?I never said that ya did.?

?You were thinkin? it.?

Calder, fiddling with his apron, had no response.

?They were gonna kill me,? Rousseau continued. ?Will stepped in an? stopped ?em at the last second, an? I promoted ?im t? captain. Told ?im t? take my place as head of The Lass. An? ya know wot the beast does?  He abuses ?is power immediately an? orders me t? let ?im take my place, havin? an excuse an? sayin? that a captain shouldn?t leave ?is crew behind.? The rat stopped. ?He saved my life, ya know.  An? yet, fer that, he may have doomed us all.?

To be honest, I wasn't really criticized at all for it,(EDIT: Though, based on the reactions from the reviewers, I don't recommend following my model.) so I'm actually curious as to why everyone is all of a sudden slamming some of these apps for it, especially speaking RV6 wasn't that long ago. Personally, I think that Grainger's character is honestly (though Balmafula really did explain it pretty well and made me change my original opinion) made better by his NPCs as the focus is still on him and it is about Grainger. I said the same thing in Nallmian's thread about Alder in response to the NPC Package Deal aspect, saying that I thought Alder did a good job of keeping the focus on Alder even with the NPC. Zevka personally, I do want to see Mekad leave the limelight a bit, because while Mekad is developed very nicely, and that's a good thing, I want to like Zevka more for the sheer fact that she's supposed to be the main character, and that's what I think everyone is really griping at in her application, not really the NPC package deal, but just that both Zevka and Mekad are equally important in Zevka's application.

I understand the skepticism of it all, as we do want it about the main characters, but I really don't understand why everyone is hating on it and wanting the NPC's to die. NPCs are necessary sometimes, they can move the plot forward, invoke development from characters when it's too difficult or not in the right scenario for them to do it from another Player, and can generally be, as you said, enjoyable, not just to read but write as well. I thought in Redventure 6, that everyone had a blast writing Mirdros, to the point where everyone basically wanted a turn, and he was just a plot point really so that the Children of the Water would attack Kotir in an attempt to save him. But of course, NPCs can be bland as well, such as Kovari and Tirian who we didn't develop well enough. A common criticism for them was that they "were whatever they needed to be at the time." We like NPCs that can help move the plot forward, and be developed enough to be enjoyable while still keeping the main focus on the player characters, otherwise they either outshine the Players similarly to Zevka's application (even though, I really think they're equals and that Zevka just needs to make herself CLEARLY the focus if she makes it in) or they become bland like Tirian and Kovari.

[TNT]

Oh, I don't hate NPCs. They are necessary, sometimes. And I've made my fair share. In Midnight Mossflower, Quincy and Jolice's relationship occupied quite a bit of my writing. And (SPOILER) when the characters found the breeders, I was the one to introduce them initially, so I made several NPCs there, too (LIKE GREGORY THE FANATICAL JERK PINE MARTEN <3). This was about halfway through the competition though, as I recall. Up until that point I think I only had one. So yeah. When the story calls for it, NPCs are okay. I hope the writers here will get more mileage out of ones that have already been made, though, rather than continuing to introduce new ones. Have you seen any of the NPC lists on the wiki? There are so many, I think only the RedVenture 5 one that Terri made is actually complete. And it's loooo-oooong.

So no, I don't hate NPCs. I hate too many NPCs, or even getting the feeling that there are too many NPCs. If you get too many, you tend to end up with a lot of flat, boring ones tossed into the mix because HAY Y NOT. Many NPCs could be taken out and the story wouldn't be affected in the slightest. I'd rather have a handful of fleshed out, interesting NPCs that serve a purpose and actually add something to the story.

But I still maintain the position that I wanna see way more contestant interactions this time around. Because I do. SO THERE. :P

[Nallmian 2.0]

I generally agree more with Sycamore on this issue. Generally speaking, I view NPCs as a good thing, provided they are well-written and entertaining in their own right, and in past contests I have not really objected to the extensive use of NPCs provided the writers handle the NPCs skillfully. In fact, I really just tend to treat NPCs like characters when writing reviews or criticisms. My problem with Alder is not the fact that the Abbott grabs my attention -- it's that Alder does not. I like the way that Terrence and Zevka use NPCs. Mekad and the nameless but well developed and interesting mouse guard both make their respective apps better by providing a display of how the characters interact with others, and by providing existing or new relationships to help drive the motivations and actions of the characters. I personally like Zevka more than Mekad, because I tend to prefer more proactive, driven characters, and my voting and reviews in the past have tended to strongly favor characters who become major plot drivers, and punish characters who are too passive or drift too much.

That said, I do agree with the basic idea that it is possible for an NPC to become problematic IF they prevent the character from interacting with other characters. One reason I really enjoyed Regi Ruston and Cynthia is that they managed to hold a lot of "screen time" without causing either Gloria or Wazzock to become isolated. Likewise, Jolice took up a lot of Quincy's time, energy and word count, but I never had any problem with this because she didn't isolate Quincy -- she, like RR and Cy,  provided extra character development, some nice little side scenes and helped shape Quincy's behavior.

[Sycamore]

I wasn't sure if I wanted to do this and display my votes, but I dunno. I kind of want to go through and give reasons to each. I think it would be good for audience and potentials alike to find out where you are on my personal scale of things. That being said...

Merchants
Zevka (1): I think Zevka needs the most help with votes if I want to see her in the story. She's not my favorite, but I've mentioned the pairing I want to see and so that's why she's getting my top vote.
Nyika (2): I feel like playing a dangerous game giving Nyika 2 votes, but from the general attitude on the board, I think she's rather safe to get in.
Pollux (3): Pollux doesn't intrigue me as much as the other merchants. I've said I don't mind NPCs, but I can't deny that Sam did catch my interest more than Pollux. Sam would have done well in the Guard spot, methinks, if it wasn't already overloaded. In any case, he gets 3 votes from me because I'm saving the higher counts for...
Terrence (4): I like Terrence, don't get me wrong. I like his character and his style and he actually reminds me of a type of character a friend of mine would write, but he gets 4 votes because I'd rather have Zevka in the story than him.
Alder Flint (5): Alder and Terrence are kind of a toss up as to who gets more votes. These two seem really close when judging the rest of the forum, but I think Alder has a slight advantage. Again, Alder isn't my least favorite of the merchants, I'm just pegging him with votes because I'd rather have others. I'm sorryyy.

Dewhurst Players
Risk (1): I don't believe Risk is my favorite of the Dewhurst Players, that spot might go to Poko, to be honest, but I'd rather him be in the story than Vist or Shortstack. Risk intrigues me a fair amount.
Poko (2): Poko has charm, and I'm fairly confident she'll get in like Nyika, which is why she gets 2 votes and not just 1. I'm really excited to see the antics and trouble she'll get in when she doesn't have the support of her father or the troupe to back her up.
Shortstack (3): Shortstack, from the general attitude, doesn't seem like much of a threat to my top two spots, so he's there to take some votes while I save the most for...
Vist (4): Sorry, Vist, but you seem to be the headrunner here when it comes between you and Risk. Nothing personal, you weren't my least favorite, but I'd rather have Risk in the story. Don't be mad!

Yew Guard
Grainger (1): I think we need a proper good guy, and Grainger needs the votes, I feel. He seems the most noble to me of all the applicants, and I think he'd do fantastic in the story.
Istvan (2): While Istvan wasn't my favorite applicant, Balmafula threw out the idea of a spiritual camaraderie with Nyika, and that intrigues me to no end.
Ben Slider (3): Ben doesn't seem to be doing well, so like most of my 3 votes, he's just placement so I can tally up some points for...
Maxine Honeydouble (4): Maxine and Noonahootin vie for the bigger points because Grainger and Istvan are my top spots, here. I think Noonahootin, while the talk of the guards have generally been quiet or vague, might do better than Maxine, which is why she gets 4 votes and Noonahootin gets...
Captain Noonahootin (5): This is actually the hardest placement for me to give, because I really love Noonahootin. In the end I might switch him and Istvan, but I need more talk and discussion on why that would be a good idea. Gah. I don't know if I'll do this. Noonahootin's charm and owlyness might win out in the end.


Any thoughts on these? Part of me posting these up is not to scare or strut around, but to open discussion on my choices, why I might be wrong or blind in some areas, and maybe give someone a chance to get me to change my mind on some of my placements. To be quite frank, the guards are really close to me, closer than any other category. I'm still not sure if I want Istvan or Noonahootin in, and in the end, I might change their placement because most of why I'm giving Istvan low points is because I'm banking on Nyika getting in. If she doesn't, then I've made myself a fool.

...

After some thought while typing and proofreading this post, it's very likely my rearranged Guard Voting Distribution List will become:

Grainger (1)
Istvan (2)
Noonahootin (3)
Ben Slider (4)
Maxine Honeydouble (5)

[Kerrin Clearloch]

We're pretty much alike here, Sycamore, except for the spot you gave for Istvan... I'm not sure giving Poko second is wise though, if you want to have her in. I'll admit I'm biased because I like her app a lot, but from what I've seen she's not really the top pick around and some have put her last. It would be sad for both of us if she didn't make it for the lack of one vote. 

My thing with Istvan is not that he's not good- his app writing is superb and the character is very original. I just feel he would jar the overall mood of the story. I mean, all the other characters are pretty much authentic Redwall types, even Nyika who's a seer. But Istvan feels more like he's come out of a darker fantasy novel, with religious and psychological undertones. Whereas any of the others (except Ben, who's also in a pretty human scenario with mentioned opium dens and hepatitis-like disease) would fit in better with the group, in my opinion. Whether it's Grainger, Noonahootin or Maxine, they would provide fatherly/motherly figures, leadership, tensions, possible rebellions against their authority, etc.

[Sycamore]

You know, I hadn't considered Maxine to provide the maternal role of the story, an epic lack of foresight on my part. I have been thinking about it, and the more I consider it the less I would mind if Istvan did not make it into the story. Grainger still gets top vote though, but it's looking to seem as though my Guard slots might really become a ranking list instead of a strategic placement of point totals.

What you say about Poko is probable. I might have missed or forgotten where she lies in most others' viewpoints. I was under the impression that she was doing very well, but that could be because of the discussion in Tara's thread. Most everyone came to her defense, there. Risk, I think, still trails her, though, and I consider Vist to be a forerunner in the distribution, who simply doesn't captivate me as much as Risk or Poko does. However, another read through of his app might change my opinion of that. Who did you see as the top pick? Vist?

[Vizon]

Unless people changed their votes (which is possible) since I started keeping a tally, it looks about like this (out of 7 voters who've revealed their choices - and this includes you):

#1 Vist - 14
#2 Poko - 15
#3 Shortstack - 19
#4 Risk - 22

So even with your ranking Risk as #1, it could be like voting for Ralph Nader. Unless he's captured the silent majority.
You can see that still one person's vote can make a big difference since the top 3 are all 4 or less points apart. For instance if someone hates Poko and gives her a 4 and loves Shortstack, giving him a 1, that would make them only 1 point apart.

It's kind of a toss-up still with the merchants now with your vote the way it is, most averaging ~15 except Pollux at 22. Terry & Zevka look to be tied and Nyika's just barely ahead by one point. Alder is about 2 points ahead - so not that far ahead. I think we'll all be surprised by the merchant winners.

With your strategic vote (again if my tallies are at all accurate), the Guard spread is something like this:

#1 - Istvan - 13
#2 - Maxine - 15
#3 - Noonahootin - 17
#4 - Ben - 19
#5 - Grainger - 20

so even in giving both Grainger and Risk your #1 slots, it may not be enough to bring them out of last place. However the middle beasts could be most affected by strong votes as they're all 2-4 points apart. I think.

I could be totally off and very surprised tomorrow.

[foxpen]

Well, don't forget to take into account that some of these characters might in fact have the same writer, and if both or all three of the characters they wrote got into the top voting round, they can only play one. So, even if you vote carefully, there can still be some surprises!

[Balmafula]

But Istvan feels more like he's come out of a darker fantasy novel, with religious and psychological undertones. Whereas any of the others (except Ben, who's also in a pretty human scenario with mentioned opium dens and hepatitis-like disease) would fit in better with the group, in my opinion. Whether it's Grainger, Noonahootin or Maxine, they would provide fatherly/motherly figures, leadership, tensions, possible rebellions against their authority, etc.

You say that Istvan could be too dark for a Redwall story, but what about the blackrobe rats and Malkariss, with Nadaz being the creepy Voice of the Host? Redwallers revere the spirit of Martin, and various vermin have mentioned Vulpuz as being the ruler of hellgates. True only one of those could be considered a real deity, but what I'm saying is that it doesn't seem so out of place that I could never see it happen. Religion is something that hasn't been really touched upon very much, it's true, but Istvan's "All-Mother" seems different to me. I can see this being a personal thing more than a real religious following.

I dunno. I kind of see him as a more sinister Tagg, and that certainly doesn't hurt my opinion of him.

[Vizon]

Well, don't forget to take into account that some of these characters might in fact have the same writer, and if both or all three of the characters they wrote got into the top voting round, they can only play one. So, even if you vote carefully, there can still be some surprises!

Interesting! So if that happened how do they decide if they have the same number of votes I wonder?

[Balmafula]

Usually in that case the author gets to decide which character he would like to write more.