Notes from Ardis

[Ada Veen]

Congrats, all. There are some v. interesting spins on characters here and I look forward to savaging you.

Reviews will be up soon.

First, some small notes:

I'd like to ask that people stop throwing around "anorexic" so casually...? I don't think Suellyn is portraying an eating disorder, and it's clear that many posters here don't know how EDs actually work. Have you ever seen a thinspiration blog?

Mental illnesses are systematic and vicious. This is not a matter of "oooh I wanna be thin!"

I'm not directing this at you, Suellyn! I REALLY don't think that's what you're going for-- you seem to be leaning in the direction of "protest"-- but if you are...

Read works by people in recovery
And those who are not.

Also, this is Wintergirls-- possibly THE BOOK to read, besides Marya Hornbacher's "Wasted." As "Prozac Nation" is to depression, well...this is to EDs.

SECONDLY, to Ms. Lacrimosa...

A baron? A baron is not the cream of society, my girl! It is pretty much the lowest level of the peerage. And Society is not high school; it is dangerous, and no one would dare TRY to be scandalous, however funny it is. The consequences were serious.

I think you may have some reading to do. Try "What Jane Austen Ate and Charles Dickens Knew." Liza strikes me as very flitty-fluttery nouveau riche and I don't think that's what you intend.

[Magical Fish]

I actually got a Becky Sharp or Scarlett O'Hara vibe from Eliza-- the women think she's common but there's nothing they can do about it because the men love her. And she possibly has a saintly friend. So why not flaunt it?


edited because Becky Sharp and Becky Thatcher are two entirely different characters. Whoops.

[Sycamore]

I'd like to ask that people stop throwing around "anorexic" so casually...? I don't think Suellyn is portraying an eating disorder, and it's clear that many posters here don't know how EDs actually work. Have you ever seen a thinspiration blog?

Duly noted. I'm unfamiliar with the disorder myself, and only drew the conclusion because I had seen it on the board elsewhere. I'll quit it, until I see confirmation from Susie herself.

. . .

I don't actually think it's a disease.

. . .

Unless it is.

[Damask the Minstrel]

Now, don't be too hasty on Liza. I got the feeling that she's in her rebellious years. And if you think the cream of the crop don't rebel in intentionally scandalous manners, I suggest you watch TV trash like "NYC Prep." (And, of course, there was nobility around before and after the Georgian/Victorian age, and that nobility often engaged in scandalous behavior and that this is an entirely fictional nobility not at all forced to adhere to a 100-year span of British traditions).

Also, while according to title a Baron is low on the totem pole, title didn't always equal power. Many times a Baron could have more land, more troops, more prosperity than a Count. Also keep in mind that she may have set that scene in a decidedly rural locale. Offset from court, a Baron might be the cream of the crop -- again assuming we are stuck in the traditions of 18th and 19th century Britain.

(EDIT: And, on the 'noblility' note, a Baron could be the cream of the crop anywhere. Bear in mind that any relatives (or descendants) of those titled are considered at least minor nobility. And, of course, those with money could always buy their way into power. So at any given event, you might have the second cousin of the Viscount, who would still come up lower on the social rung than the Baron, though if strings were pulled perhaps not, though the Viscount might not feel like helping her this day if the Baronet he was courting didn't want him too... and so forth. Even rigid Victorian nobility could be fluid.

And I want to add that if I come across as defensive, it's because I am. Your post sounded very condescending. If you had good intentions, sorry. If not, remember that in fantasy, all is possible. I'm not recreating Bronte. In fact, if anything, I'll pull a Pratchett and spit in her eye for the fun of it.)

(Second Edit: Suellyn seems to be portraying -- won't put words in her mouth -- loss of appetite as side effect of clinical depression. Of course, by denotation, that is an eating disorder, however your point does stand -- to a degree. Ignorance of the PC-terms of ED-culture isn't as egregious a sin as you make it out to be. Forgive their ignorance, understand that not everyone is widely-read on the topic, and make gentle corrections. I mean, I don't jump at every usage of 'gypsie' even if it is comparable to a racial slur.)

[Ada Veen]

'Pologies. It was late, we were snippy, and we come from a place where mental illnesses cut pretty close to the heart. Suellyn seems like a v. capable writer, so I was wondering if I was blind and somehow she was trying to portray that...which still doesn't seem like the case. And I've always felt that casual treatment of "anorexic" is something that needs to be corrected; it's a loaded, sometimes triggering term.

As for Liza, I guess what I mean to say is: I'm very familiar with this portrayal of society, in the Georgian/Victorian/Edwardian/blah-blah-applesauce mode, and because of some intense, prolonged study on the subject (something like five years thereof) I always feel it's a cursory reading of a nuanced social construct-- and one I see frequently. It seems like set dressing, rather than something integral to the character; a lady like Liza has to have been given the runamok by society's mores, its customs, the preparations and plots.

[Damask the Minstrel]

I agree, just as I agree that tossing around 'gypsy' is as egregious an offense (considering some states still have discriminatory laws on the books).

I understand where you come from (EDITed to save my identity from sneakytypes. But, yers, I understand completely), still... think of the context. The chances that we'll be engaged in a scandal/intrigue at court are slim to none, especially as every other character (save maybe Venril) is common as muck. It's good background knowledge, in case it comes up in her backstory, but it certainly isn't integral to her writing in this context.

[Ada Veen]

Haha, yeah, I was unclear on that point. I mean more...as it comes through in her behavior? I love having glimmers of a character's background in their speech and their interactions with others.

[Damask the Minstrel]

True. It would be a nice distinction to have (new money v. old, to determine a few of her characteristics). However, as she is now scarred and most likely a pariah because of it, and soon to share the space with a motley bunch, it's window-dressing. There only to serve the needs of English Lit. scholars. ^.^

[Suellyn]

Mental illnesses are systematic and vicious. This is not a matter of "oooh I wanna be thin!"

I'm not directing this at you, Suellyn! I REALLY don't think that's what you're going for-- you seem to be leaning in the direction of "protest"-- but if you are...

Su has definite issues with food but she does not want to be thin, so she is not technically anorexic.
and that's all I'm going to say about that. *nods*

[Sycamore]

So one must have a desire to be thin to be anorexic?

[Eliza Lacrimosa]

*curious eyebrow*

Well, er, yes. What Damask said. :p

One thing I shall add is that, contextually, "Scandalous" was a word out of Eliza's own head. It was more an exaggeration of what she believed they would think than anything else. Whether or not she was actually being scandalous is a matter I chose to leave to the mind's eye of the reader.

As for her education and knowledge of the social norms, her reasons for rebelling against them, and so on and so forth, there are actually reasons planned out, and they should be brought too light in the none-too-distant future.

That being said, thank you for the criticism, Ada, and I hope that you'll find things more enjoyable in the actual story.

[Ada Veen]

So one must have a desire to be thin to be anorexic?

Nnnnno. I just meant that's what most people reduce it to.

Anyway, I have to take these one at a time since studying theology is a total brain-drain...

Bellona

I appreciate it when the way the character views life comes through in the narrative-- what I mean is not  when they recall something or...whatever else, I don't know...but when their thoughts, feelings, and behaviors influence the writing itself. Your style feels clipped and bare, and that is TOTALLY appropriate for Bellona's character.

I'd like to see this writer step outside the bare bones of writing: the pattern of subject-verb-object, participle, etc. Stick to your guns-- pepper your prose with Bellona's thoughts on the youngbeasts and such. That worked as a break. Nice, eh.

However, I'd like Bellona to pay some attention to the way she words things. Vis-?-vis this point:

- You tell us she's terse, and it comes across in the narrative, but I'd like a little more showing rather than telling.
- You can't grin dialogue! Careful with your tags.
- The darkness that clouded his eyes, the x in question, etc. This is all somewhat easily-written...you didn't have to go far to grab those phrases, because they're common and cliche.
- Just general awkwardness. When I read "[...] who continued to laugh with the carefree abandon of one whose experience of battle started and ended with bedtime stories of heroes of yore" I like the sentiments, the idea, that WORKS, but it's awkward on my tongue. And I've worked in radio!

[Sycamore]

Actually, I was referring to this quote here:

Su has definite issues with food but she does not want to be thin, so she is not technically anorexic.
and that's all I'm going to say about that. *nods*

I'm sorry! I'll quit the discussion if I'm being obnoxious about it.

[Cairn Destop]

Looks like Sycamore has just run into another "normal" word.  Yeah, don't go there, you'll only get yourself burned.

[Ada Veen]

No worries, Syc! I missed that.

Also, Cairn, this is merely a matter of clarifying what anorexia is and what it is not. In this setting, it's not possible for another character to recognize Suellyn as eating-disordered-- that's just historically correct. Like, during the middle ages, you'd run into anorexia mirabilis in women and girls who'd starve themselves for the sake of God but you sure as heck wouldn't recognize the modern definition of anorexics/bulimics/etc. EDs take on many different faces. What I'd like to emphasize is that while Suellyn may or may not be a sufferer of anorexia nervosa, clinical depression, etc. etc. etc. she very obviously has issues with disordered eating and attached behaviors; the key to writing a mental illness well is to recognize the thoughts and patterns that characterize it and step beyond the common understanding of what it is. This matters whether or not you can pin a textbook definition on it.

You could diagnose my character Elizabeth with a whole host of things: generalized anxiety disorder, severe atypical depression, a side of panic disorder, and later EDNOS (eating disorder not otherwise specified) tending to bulimia, persistent depersonalization, hallucinatory episodes, blah-blah-applesauce. Her historical context makes it likely that she'd be labeled schizophrenic.*

The point is, I just don't care what she is, I care how she acts.  I know a little about psychopathology, so I get the gist of her fabulous spectrum of wack, but I'm also uncomfortably familiar with anxious/depressive behaviors and realize that they are more than just "angst/boo, I am sad and panicky." So I can extend that to Elizabeth-- there are particular patterns of thought and action that a depressed person will follow, and that Elizabeth would follow according to her personal experiences and background. Patterns. Those are key to the disordered character.

Once you understand how that particular person would behave, you can start to expand.

Another one of my characters is a victim of sexual abuse. Here, I'm going to dig up something I've written before:

My character, the courtesan Dalia, is a victim of repeated sexual abuse, first by an authority figure (a friend of her father's) in childhood and later by her patron/husband. Dalia's reaction is classic rape victim psychology and she has the expected response to this abuse. When I write her, or I think about her, though, I don't go "Dalia is a victim of sexual abuse AND she should act like one." Rather, that resulted from my thinking about how a person with her particular background would react to the things that have happened to her. (I later realized that her reactions echoed the experiences of women who have had to live through the same horrible abuse.) That is not to say that I'm making it all up-- no, I had an idea of how she might react, but I wrote her within some of those constraints while refusing to write her by them. And that's what makes her so interesting to me-- why would a woman who has been hurt, who has been raped, decide she wants to be a courtesan, of all things? What does she feel about her manipulative husband, who is a trainwreck in his own right, and WHY does she feel that way? I don't define her by her diagnosis. Rather, I see that and the way she acts it out as a part of the complex, contradictory person she is.

* She also hears dead people and that's probably part of it.